Episode 4: Spirituality vs. Religion

Spirituality is a big issue amongst Baby Boomers. As they age Boomers tend to look back on their life’s events and can get confused with spirituality, thinking it is all about religion. Can we really define “spirituality” without excluding the concept of faith?


Wayne Bucklar:  You’re listening to Booms Day Prepping, our regular look at prepping for that stage of life that’s coming to Baby Boomers, for Baby Boomers, by Baby Boomers. My name is Wayne Bucklar and my co-host is here Dr. Drew Dwyer along with our regular panel of guests – Brian, Glenn, Bron and Amanda. If you’d like to know about our regular panel, we have bios and an introductory video on our website at boomsdayprepping.com. Drew Dwyer, welcome to the show.

Dr. Drew Dwyer:  Good morning everybody. How are you all feeling?

Glenn Capelli:  Great. Thank you very much, doctor.

Brian Hinselwood:  Very well, thank you.

Wayne:  Our topic today is ‘Spirituality’. Drew, lead us off.

Dr. Drew:  I like this bit of subject matter because of late, I would have to say probably for the last five years I’ve been dealing quite a bit with Boomers in their transition processes and looking at themselves and looking at where their lives going and finding that place, or the new norm, or where their life is going now that they’re probably retired, or looking at retirement, or trying to find that something new. And in relationship or in correlation with this, the new age of spirituality has become an alternative way of looking at life and the availability of life for the average joe. So mainly because of internet, mainly because of many more other people getting aligned with spirituality. Looking at spirituality, it’s become a bigger issue amongst Boomers. For myself, I’m quite a spiritual person. I’ve been a Reiki Master for just over 20 years I’d say now. And for those of you who don’t know Reiki, it’s a non-invasive and gentle hands-on method of channeling energy, universal energy and bringing that out of the universe into my body and onto somebody else if I’m using it in a way to heal emotion or pain or something that they want to be removed from in their lives so it’s quite a bit of a conflict issue that I discuss quickly. But what I do find amongst the Boomers is that they’re on this journey and the search. They have a tendency to go too far left or too far right as they would say but someone or many of them have a tendency to be a little bit of Alice in Wonderland and trip down the rabbit hole and get a bit lost when it comes to spirituality and their connection with where their place is in the universe.

Glenn:  And Drew, you mentioned Reiki. Let me ask you this question, is yoga religious, spiritual, physical all of the above and why does it matter? And we can say yoga, we could say Reiki, but I got a point for asking this, but religious, spiritual, physical, all of the above doesn’t matter.

Dr. Drew:  It does matter in the context of spiritual. Spiritual people, now often people get confused that spirituality is about religion. Spirituality doesn’t have much to do with religion at all. Many religions are connected and associated with spirituality or have a spirituality or spiritual context to it depending on what deity, god or being that they give sacrament to. But for pure spirituality, it is about what I researched with the flow of Chi, wherein Chi is a flow of energy that exists in everything that we have, including human beings, plants, animals, your car, your phone, your computer. It all contains the flow of energy called Chi. The Chinese are very well-educated and mastered in this and Chi is an energy that flows through us. And basically in the figure of eight, and once you start learning the process to identify and connect with your Chi or use your Chi, it becomes a very strong feeling of power and a confidence in yourself to connect with other things that surround you. The auger is one of those I’d say transportation devices. It allows the manifestation of Chi to work through the body in different ways as a physical matter and yet Reiki is a spiritual use or an energetic use of spiritual, only it flows through the body in a very defined way. So they all have their different meanings and they’re quite broad and wonderful in their interpretations. And this is what allows people to search after their own boat to float, if you like, within the spiritual realm.

Glenn:  It’s wonderful to hear you speak about this because I know you would describe yourself not as a spiritual person but a Christian. And I came up against some friends of mine who are strong Christians. We wrote a song about saluting the sun and movements of yoga and they wouldn’t play the song and couldn’t embrace it because they felt that yoga was not of a Christian message so I think there would be elements of religion and that sometimes block or restrict how some people would see spiritual.

Dr. Drew:  Yes, I mean well transmitters where like when I work with my Boomers who have taken this trip and of course, I live up in New South in the Sunshine Coast and quite up that way in around Queensland and up where I live, there’s quite a number of retirees that are very heavily into this type of lifestyle – spiritual healing, life balance healing and all these other counseling processes. They all run around wearing cheesecloth and amethysts around their necks and have a connection with crystals, and markets and organic foods. But in reality, religion is the ideology and the teaching process of the known cultural norm of that scripture or that reading. Spirituality is much, much broader. It’s not delineated so quickly and it goes very broad right across many different things. But I do appreciate that people who are strict religious orientated don’t exactly evolve or connect very well with spirituality, because we start stepping away from the globe or the global concept of earth, and we start moving now into spiritual dimensional universal plane to other energies from other universes. And sometimes, there I say extraterrestrial contents can creep into this. My reason for wanting to talk about it is because some Boomers unfortunately get very misguided and get very sidetracked. And what I do, what I want to express to a lot of Boomers listening is be very careful and be very mindful of what you’re doing. Always remain connected to your real selves your third dimensional selves because we are a third dimensional being on the planet of earth. We are all transitioning to fifth dimensional spaces at the moment if you weren’t aware of that. But going through the universal energy and the ages of how we experience life from the Stone Age up to the Gold Age during the Noah Era, and now back to the Stone Age and up to the Iron Age again, I have the tendency to see a lot of these Boomers being sidetracked and specifically by people who are preaching or claiming to be the spiritual leaders, and guides and teachers, and charging money for teachings, and practices, and classes and really taking advantage of these Boomers who are looking for a better place or a more connected place as their Third Age comes along.

Brian:  If I could just say something that at the beginning of all this Drew you said that we shouldn’t think of spirituality in a religious sense but the last five or six minutes have really been about religion. I can’t see the difference between what you’re saying in particularly, we have a very good friend who is very much into Reiki and between that of Buddhism. I mean Buddhism is all about “If I’m really nice, therefore Glenn will be really nice. If Glenn and I are really nice, therefore Amanda will be nice.” It’s like a molecule thing. I fail to see the difference.

Glenn:  Buddhism is more os a philosophy of life and is there a difference between a religion,  religion to me, it requires rules and regulations coming from some external body that’s a large organization if you like. It’s a corporate thing. Whereas Buddhism is a very much a philosophy and linking to nature and the bigger white world. So, I see Buddhism often is more of a philosophy Brian and that’s more how I see my own spirituality. As asked on radio whether if we’re religious, and I stood up. Hopefully I’d be spiritual rather than religious.

Dr. Drew:  Spirituality is a combination of things. It enables people to transform from one place of a being to another. So it really isn’t associated to religion but yet many people who believe in their faith or religion have quite a connection with spirituality once they are introduced to it. Some of the issues that begin with human beings is that they then start to challenge or question the difference between religion and spirituality.

Brian:  We’re talking about teleporting, are we? Where we just kind of pretend to be somewhere else.

Bron:  What I was going to say, because I’m someone who has done a transition from probably being a religious person to being a spiritual person while maintaining the foundations of my Christian faith. Because that has certainly been my own journey and there are a lot of people that I know who are currently doing that, who are now in their 40s, 50s and 60s, who’ve got a very strong grounding in religious tenets and doctrines, but who are finding that not only are these constrictive, but they’re also only a part of the truth. And for myself, I know that journey has been, I do want to use a stronger word as traumatic. I’ll use traumatic, given that at times, I have felt my whole foundations for my way of thinking and looking at the world have dropped away. And that’s only because I have chosen to move on from some of the more rigid rules and regulations connected with the Christian religion. And in doing so, I have become connected much more. As I have been all my life but just in snippets, now it’s a much more full blown version of that so that I see myself very much. As a spiritual person who has a religious basis might be the the best way to express that.

Dr. Drew:  It is an average person’s problem because what you’re talking about is, it is very common amongst particularly people in our age group and Boomers and that is as we age, we reflect back on our life’s events and journey and we have a look to see whether or not we can place and where we have been or where we are and where we’re going. And much of what we experience when we take a transition is centered around the concept or the knowing. The automatic or natural knowing that there is something bigger than what you already know and something bigger than what you’ve been taught. As you start to develop your transition into experiencing spirituality, you at some point will come into connection with ego. And the term ‘Ego’ again, is quite broad but it’s ego is what the individual is being challenged by. Your ego is what you have to tackle when you take a spiritual journey. The ego is not the issue when you’re dealing with religious doctrine.

Brian:  For me personally, you’re all talking in circles. I just don’t know why people can’t be nice. I don’t know why they need to put a label on it, “Oh I follow this god or that god or one of the 5,000 gods there are.” I just think, “Why just can’t people be nice? Why do they have to have something like religion, or spirituality or anything else to fall back on? Why can’t they just fall back on themselves?”

Glenn:  This is a wonderful religion if we were going to invent a religion. I spent 7 years backpacking around the world Brian and one of the reasons I went backpacking is to try to find the common elements of religion. What are the unifying factors that would bring us together as human beings rather than divide us? And I knew nothing about Judaism and so I headed straight to Israel to learn something of that. And it’s really interesting because I mean it’s the big undertaking and there is no answer except that in my research, I read a little thing about sunshine going through a stained-glass window and if you’re on one side of the stained glass window, there’s yellow, there’s green, there’s blue and they’re all the religions. But there’s a sunshine behind the stained glass where we know that is a sunshine that is a universal thing that should connect them all up. And if there was something to that and let’s put niceness as that sunshine. Human beings displaying good humanity to each other is a wonderful, beautiful thing.

Brian:  Well I just think if religion is the answer, then it’s a fairly stupid question. It just doesn’t make any sense that people have to believe in some mythical creature to have any value in themselves. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Bron:  And I think what to do is to just make the distinction between religion and spirituality, because people are spiritual beings. All of us are, whether we’re connected to the spiritual side of life, that’s a choice we make or maybe a lack of awareness or awareness whatever it is. But I totally agree with you Brian. Religion and the varieties of religions, they have caused heaps of issues and probably continue to cause more issues than add help to the world, but we are spiritual beings. And whether we call that being nice, showing love, being connected to the earth, whatever words we use, it’s us trying to express something that sometimes we find hard to express. Even the best wordsmiths are a lost for words, I think sometimes when it comes to spirituality.

Glenn:  When I went from Israel to Ireland, now this is 1981-82. So perhaps I had a bit of a death wish at the time. But there’s a wonderful story I was told in Ireland and very quickly, it goes there’s a chap walking down the street, as he was walking down the street, he feels a gun barrel in his back. And there’s voice behind him says, “Would you be Protestant or would you be Catholic? Would you be Protestant or would you be Catholic?” The chapman with the gun barrel in his back think so, “What do I do? What do I say?”, and then it hits him. A flash of inspiration and and he says, “I’m Jewish.” And the voice behind him says, “Well I must be the luckiest Arab in Belfast tonight.” There’s something about this division that I think is what the religions do with what you’re saying, but I think there’s a connectivity that Brian’s talking about that is that humanity aspect. A mate of mine and let’s name him, his name is ‘Elbert’ – he described himself as a pragmatic meat-eating atheist and then a week later, he met a new woman and suddenly he’s become a vegetarian who keeps saying the universe will provide. The transition has taken place and sometimes it happens by a new woman in life or a new tragedy in life to able to make that transition.

Dr. Drew:  The unfortunate thing people get confused about in particularly our Boomer age group is that these transitions don’t happen with other people. They happen as a spiritual concept within inside yourself and so some of the counseling I do and when I start to meet the Boomers that are in this space is I have to cut very clear lines with them over what they’re searching for and looking for against or match to what they’re experiencing. And often what we’re dealing with and what I’m dealing with is people on a search to find an answer, or a resolution, or solving to a problem or a change of circumstance and they have a tendency to jump very quickly. Being religious or not, other to the spiritual learning once they start to taste it and get involved or start to experience some of it. And at my point is to bring them back, bring them straight back to themselves – who they are – and just put some resistance against where they’re going and to rely a little bit more confidently in working with a professional health counselor, mental health counselor, because these are also a combination of psychological aspects of the human brain and the human life. And it’s also important, even though people, I don’t stop them from having their spiritual experience or journey, but I do like to such as the Mr. Squiggle sort of feature or image. Grab them by the hand and bring them back down to the ground, “Down, down, down, down here Mr. Squiggle”, because it’s important for all human beings to have some faith and have more faith being Christian, well of course, but have some trust in psychological processes, counseling and the processes that we learn, and teach and advice through good counseling services and psychological services. Because much of the problems that they’re trying to solve can actually be solved through good normal Applied Sciences and Social Sciences and I’d like to know what Amanda’s point of view is on that.

Amanda Lambros:  I think you’re kind of spot on there.Oftentimes all of this discussion over the religion and spirituality and all that, when people come in to see mental health providers and counselors, what ends up happening is they’re actually usually just talking about the loss and transitions. And so it’s a loss of trust or a loss of spirituality or just different things like that you hear within the questions they’re asking that they just want you to (crosstalk).

Dr. Drew:  Grief of loss.

Amanda:  Exactly. And unfortunately, what happens is they come in and they just want walk or fortunately, they just want some guidance. And previously, they may have had a view of religion that they’ve something has gone off kilter and then they’ve gone, “I don’t know if I still trust my instincts in that.” And so it’s really learning to rebuild themselves up individually, as opposed to banking on something else. And then if they want, afterwards, they then do.

Dr. Drew:  And that’s important too. I want our listeners to know, because I ask any of the listeners who are having these experiences and feeling connection with anything we’re saying. Go and do a little bit of your own YouTube research and your own looking. People should be grounded in some of the positive series we had around human existence, and feelings, emotions and well-being. And one of the most classic yet one of the oldest is the Maslow’s Pyramid of Human Needs. And for many of the Baby Boomer older cohort of people, they’re sitting very much up in the ‘Self-actualization Space’ of their development which means they’ve met all their other levels of their need in many different ways and sometimes not in others. But they very much reach a place where it becomes wanting more, doing more, needing more and wanting to feel more wanted, or giving, or having something different. It’s called ‘Self-actualization’ within the theory of Maslow. It’s very, very common at mid life crisis.

Brian:  I have a vision of people coming to counselors and sort of saying, “Hi, look I just walked in and I’ve lost God and my spirituality. I have them the other day.” And now, I mean, where do these people come from? Where do you find these people?

Dr. Drew:  Your next door neighbor Brian.

Brian:  I’ve got to say, we’ve got a couple of lovely young ladies living next door. I don’t think they’re looking for spirituality. They’re quite happy with themselves. Look, I just find it incredible that the people need, not that they need help. The people are having a breakdown or whatever, people need help. I fully understand that. I just can’t see why somebody would need help to find out who they are.

Amanda:  Because some people don’t learn these things.

Dr. Drew:  Yes, that’s exactly it. From a counseling and psychological perspective, we don’t advise people what to do. We give them tools that help them to experience or identify themselves. And we give them tools and assets which we know psychologically or through a counseling or a therapeutic process, depending on its dog therapy, play therapy, circle of influences therapy. We give the individual the tools they need to experience their own emotions and feelings and to place them down in a pragmatic place where they get to identify and come to reality about themselves. Bad counselors advise people and tell people what to do.

Bron:  I totally agree.

Brian: Ok

Glenn:  And I like the idea Brian you’re talking. Your neighbors were quite happy in themselves because maybe that is spirituality. The great psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and try saying that down with a cold, but Mihaly talks the flow. It’s basically us as being happy human beings. And part of this happy human being thing is that we find a little bit of meaning in what we do and it might be mowing the lawn might be a spiritual activity because you can see a result, you can get an action, you’re doing physical, you’re doing movement, you’re out in sunshine, you connect to the earth, you connect to the sky. And the great philosopher Sheldon Kopp said that, “’On one hand, we’ve got to recognize this whole universe was made just for us. And on the other hand, we’re just dust.” And somewhere in there, it’s living a life of appreciation and a life of humility. And in that quest, I think some people do go off the rails. So, then they need a bit of a helping hand is to find some possibilities how to reconnect with nature, reconnect with the earth itself, the sky above us, the people around us and that might be as good as it gets to be quite happy in themselves, the religion of Brian.

Brian:  Sorry Bron, I think maybe a short answer is and just to tell them to get out more, I mean really, “Get a life.”

Bron:  But I think what you’re saying there Glenn is so true and taking that something what Drew had said where he sees people going off track. It’s when a guru, a coach, a counselor, spiritual guide, whatever you want to call it, a minister of religion – when those people tell you what you must believe and what that belief looks like and what behaviors must go with those beliefs, or outlooks or philosophies, that’s where I think we get into real problems. And I think that’s maybe perhaps what Drew was also warning Baby Boomers against, is don’t get sucked into whether their systems or lifestyle packages or whatever you want to call it – that tell you that this is how you must view life or pay me X amount of dollars and I will give you all the answers.

Drew: Show you peace.

Glenn:  Now Wayne you’re a man with a laugh. Does your sense of the spiritual appreciate just when you’re laughing with life and bills and laughter that brings a tear to the eye sometimes. Maybe that’s human beings at their spiritual self.

Wayne:  Glenn, we seem to have lost what we’re talking about. We had a little birth through Reiki before and Drew with due respect, you said do some research, well you don’t want to do that if you want to talk about the scientific evidence basis of Reiki. You criticize people who want to take money off people and tell them what to do. I didn’t comment about Reiki masters at the time but we’ll come back to that. Glenn, you were saying that mowing the lawn is spiritual. I’m sorry. Spirituality surely has to have an element of faith. If it doesn’t have an element of faith, you’re talking about exercise. You’re not talking about spirituality. And religion, which Bron you were saying don’t get hooked in with people who want to tell you what to do. Well surely the first tenet of religion, in fact the first command is, “There is no God but me.” There shall only be one and be it a Judaic Christian, or Islamic or Sikh. As far as I know, and I could be called on this, there is not a religion out there that says, “Believe in my God, but the other ones are okay as well. They are all inclusive.” So I’m confused that we have this conversation about spirituality which seems to me to have ignored the basic tenet which is Faith – evidence of things that are unseen.

Glenn:  When you’re mowing the lawn, you’ve got faith to what you’re doing gets the result.

Wayne:  When you’re mowing the lawn Glenn, you don’t need faith because you look at the lawn and afterwards then there is evidence.

Glenn:  Yes. And sometimes I guess that is the spiritual path too, that somewhere inside yourself there’s a sense of the evidence, isn’t it? There was a man climbing up the mountain and he looks up and he’s going to slip and he says, “Please help me, help me, help me.” And the voice above says, “Have faith. Let go.” And he looks back up and he says, “Is there anyone else up there?” Sometimes, you just got to find a way. For me, the spiritual sense is the sense of flow, it’s got some physical and nature things and it does, we can see that it makes a difference and we find our own evidence within ourselves. The religions keep saying, “You don’t get this because you don’t have faith.” You’ll get this when you have faith and that’s a beautiful little catch-22 to be able into throw into anyone’s brain. But for me, I actually think the way I define ‘spiritual’ – Does it got physical elements? Does it got nature elements? Does it got some movement? Does it that you can see some sense inside yourself? Does it got some evidence backs you up?

Wayne:  Can you separate that for me from ballet, because it has movement and some physical elements and some nature? Are you saying that ballet is spiritualism?

Glenn:  For some human beings, ballet is. For some human beings, every movement is, for some human being surfing a wave is. And that’s the spirituality that I find sense in.

Wayne:  And I put it to you that your use of the word spirituality is pointless because it embraces everything we do in the world.

Glenn:  No, that’s meaningful because that’s what spirituality is, thank you very much Wayne.

Wayne:  Define it for me and exclude the concept of faith.

Glenn:  The concept of faith will be within it. Faith and grace have got to go hand in hand as far as I know. And they’re very difficult things to be able to define.

Wayne:  Could we add charity and love because then we’ll get the whole set of worthless words? I want to know the difference between spirituality and having faith.

Bron:  Having faith generally has an object. If say in the Judeo-Christian tradition, that object is God, or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. In Islam, that object is Allah. In Buddhism, it’s Buddha. So I think faith has an object. Spirituality is more about connection.

Dr. Drew:  Connection with soul, connection with spirit and connection with non-physical things or material so this is where the difference comes. People must understand spirituality is the connection and concern with your own human spirit, your own soul and its connection to the universe, not to anything physical.

Wayne:  So what about this connection to the universe? Chi energy you called it before, soul. You’re telling me I don’t need faith in those things. I just need spirituality.

Dr. Drew:  No. I’ll dumb it down.

Wayne:  You do that. Don’t offend me while you’re saying it.

Dr. Drew:  I don’t want to offend you Wayne, but I’ll dumb it down for you. People who take a spiritual journey or want to have it, one of the questions, pure questions I ask them, is have they been attuned? Have they attuned themselves and have they experienced attunement? And they’ll say to me, “What is that?” So that tells me straightaway that they haven’t connected with what they’re actually wanting to master or be a part of. Now the art of attunement comes from other spiritual professionals who line you up to a meditation, very, very deep meditation, the use of crystals, incenses and things. But it’s used to open up your own body’s channeling system that is connecting your soul to the outside universal energy. I can show you because I have experienced it.

Wayne:  You’re quite right, that was pretty dumb. Is there any evidence for any of that, that doesn’t require me to believe in the great wombat but in the sky?

Brian:  Wayne the point you’re missing is, that there are people who can teach you this and they’ll charge you $45 an hour for it.

Wayne:  I have this immense difficulty with the difference between things for which there is evidence and things for which there is no evidence seen. And as I understand the language, faith would be the evidence of things unseen. I don’t need evidence because I have faith. But when you then convince me, when you argue with me Drew in terms of spirituality, and atonement and connectedness, I keep checking my science manual and I can’t find any of those in there.

Dr. Drew:  You would find a number of PhD people that actually work and do research as a peer-reviewed evidence-based program. For me, it’s not about connecting to evidence-based practice with spirituality. For me, it’s very much a personal individual journey but it’s very much done about soul, and feeling, and emotion and connection with yourself, your ego.

Wayne:  Isn’t the word you’re looking for belief? You want me to believe I have soul. I don’t have a soul.

Dr. Drew:  You can believe you don’t, that’s okay Wayne. If you like it, if you’re comfortable with it.

Wayne:  Drew, it’s not about I don’t believe I have a soul. I don’t believe the sun comes up every morning. I have evidence that sun comes up every morning. I believe in things I have evidence for. All the rest of the things require evidence.

Amanda:  On that same argument, we have things like how far away is the sun from the earth? Well we roughly know that, but nobody has taken a ruler and stood on earth and taking that ruler and measured it to the sun. So there’s some things that we go on with kind of more of an anecdotal evidence or a scientifically-based evidence that’s non-tangible. And I think that’s what this one is. This isn’t like you can’t measure it, those kind of things. So this is like an intangible evidence that we’re actually discussing.

Brian:  So for the scientific proof of religion and faith. Where’s the scientific proof for that?

Bron:  It doesn’t need to be a scientific proof because we’re talking about two different things. It’s like a saying that we’re going to talk about, this may not be a best example, but trying to compare English and Mathematics. They both have their logic. They both have their rules. They both have their ways of expressing things, but they are different. And just as you wouldn’t expect a mathematician to be able to express things in exactly the same. A mathematical equation is not the same as a sentence. Therefore, spirituality is not the same as empirical evidence. And I don’t know why we have to insist that we must have empirical evidence for things that Amanda says are intangible.

Wayne:  Because if you don’t have evidence, you need faith.

Bron:  No, you could have anecdotal evidence which is what Amanda is talking about. You could have experiential evidence.

Dr. Drew:  Most spiritual journeys or people who are heavily or highly spiritually connected, it is  absolutely the experience and this is why it becomes confusing for other people who have not experienced that attunement. Once you experience that enlightenment, or connection and attunement, I can guarantee you – you very, very, very much know that you have taken a dimensional shift in yourselves. Your entire physical being and soul takes a very, very dramatic shift and you no longer are the same person you were before you experienced that attunement.

Brian:  I’m actually lost for words. I find the whole argument is either totally beyond me.

Dr. Drew:  It’s about loving yourself and loving others.

Brian:  You’re asking people to believe is something that Wayne pointed out that has no proof. You’re asking people to believe in something that you believe in because you believe it. And you charge people for the pleasure.

Dr. Drew:  Brian, I want you to understand. For me as a clinician, I only charge for my clinical professional practice. I do not charge anything I do in Reiki. No the point is, it is the spiritual connection that people want to make is very natural. Every human being at some point will reach a space of spirituality. Now my issue and what I wanted to talk about today with the panelists and for the Boomers listening, is when you reach this space, they must be also remained balanced and grounded to the fact that they may also be in need of some very normal psychological evidence-based guidance, counseling and psychology or mental health and wellness work rather than tripping too far down the rabbit hole with Alice and getting lost in Wonderland.

Wayne:  I challenge the absolutism here. For a scientific man Drew, for you to say, everyone reaches this point, offends my logic. I haven’t reached that point.

Brian:  It depends on the people if you haven’t reached out that point too. And I’m thinking, “Oh my God, what have I missed?”

Wayne:  I’m defective, so I’ll settle for some people do. I’ll settle for many people do. But I won’t settle for most and I won’t accept Bron’s argument earlier that we’re all spiritual beings. There are lots of people in my view who are not. They don’t accept faith. They don’t believe in souls. They don’t have connectedness with the lawn-mowing. They don’t need to know the number of centimeters to the sun. They just believe that they exist in the world as it is today. And when they die, they turn into worm poo and there is nothing more. There’s no universal energy, no chi, no mystical Asian influences and that Buddhism was just started by a guy who had a good idea. So you have to make faith and make room for people, in my view, who do not have faith, who did not have spiritualism and still consider themselves worthwhile members of the human race and I think you’re all excluding that concept.

Glenn:  Leading to that concept, because many of us has been saying the exact same thing, you just said and then you managed to isolate us by saying, “We haven’t said it.” So Wayne and Brian, we might not mean to use spirituality in our vocabulary but are there things that you consider spiritual in terms of your own life? Spiritual moments that you would have, or do you put a different definition to it? There’s just a really nice moment that brings a tear to your eye and a greater understanding to your heart.

Brian:  Look, I’m a very, very big fan of Liverpool soccer club and I constantly roll my eyes to the skies when I’m watching them. So I don’t know if that’s spiritual or not or whether it’s just frustration. I don’t know.

Glenn:  But when that crowd sings that song together, what does that do inside you? There’s a good vibration that happens to that.

Brian:  We basically remember the Gerry and the Pacemakers made it important. It’s a lovely song, I’m glad that we captured it.

Glenn:  And the voices together, is there something that lifts it beyond Gerry and the Pacemakers?

Brian:  It’s brilliant. Being there, have done that – it’s brilliant. But it doesn’t make any more spiritual, I don’t think. I basically want the football team to win the game.

Glenn:  I like the song and I don’t support that team but I have a tear in my eye. That’s beautiful.

Dr. Drew:  If you want to draw a shorter bow to the whole discussion, it’s really about if you want to be a spiritual person then you have to be letting kindness and love into your life. And you have to be able to have kindness and love to yourself first, then give it to others, animals and other beings, because this is being the basic foundation of spirituality is to have love and light and to be kind, and to be generous and to give. So I agree with you Wayne, I know a lot of people who are not like that, will never do that and they’ll never come across to that concept. Whatever caused their spiritual being to be that way or their energy to vibrate in that sensation could take a series of consultations to get through. But I do solemnly believe as one science-based clinician and two, a spiritual belief person is that is we need to adapt, and funnel and channel more love, and more light and more energy into ourselves first so that it can pass through us out onto other people.

Bron:  Yes, I agree.

Brian:  And then back to Buddhism really, isn’t it?

Dr. Drew:  It’s exactly the same and really, I mean when you look in the mirror and Wayne and you see yourself as a cranky old fart and you’re comfortable with that, I’m happy to have a drink with you or two.

Wayne:  I only have mirrors in my house from the neck up, because as I’ve got older, I’ve thrown out all the others. I’ll be quiet.

Brian:  Wayne, don’t desert me now mate. Please hang in there.

Wayne:  For me, the issue hinges on the concept of faith. The difference between hearing the football club sing and get a tear in your eye and spirituality for me is that I don’t need anything else with the football club. I experience emotion, the emotion is real, I have a tear in my eye. Call that spirituality if you will, I wouldn’t. If I have to believe in something, if I have to have faith in something, then that’s a different concept for me.

Brian:  And I agree totally.

Glenn:  I just find that those voices together and whether it’s that example or the hum of the motor when you’re mowing the lawn – spirituality has got something to do with connectivity. Whether it’s connectivity to other human beings, connectivity to nature itself, connectivity that’s beyond us.

Wayne:  I don’t dispute that definition until we come around and needing to believe in things. Either believing in a Holy Trinity, believing in the Great Pumpkin God in the sky, believing in the existence of a soul. Once we get to that point where we have to believe and therefore we have the faith, I have difficulty because I don’t have faith. I’ve searched for it and as you said earlier Glenn, I’ve been advised that I should act to survey a faith and so shall be given, but it didn’t. It hasn’t.

Dr. Drew:  What you’re talking about Wayne is your own spirituality. It is your own freedom. Religion is organized and spirituality is the freedom across the whole broad spectrum to think, and do, and feel and experience what you want. So you’re actually talking about your own spirituality whether you like to accept that or not, that’s what you’re talking about.

Brian:  Well the other problem that you have in the place that you live in, there is no lawn. You don’t have a lawn at your place so you can’t go out and do the mowing. So you’re already behind the eight ball.

Glenn:  Obviously the point of a metaphor is not embraced in some ways to the world. May the force be with you guys, come on.

Wayne:  And interestingly, I do live in the Philippines where A – someone comes and mows my lawn with a pair of clippers by hand, and B – the population is 88% Catholic and 11% in Iglesia ni Cristo and 1% kind of everything else. This is a very religious community but faith is a tenet of that.

Bron:  And I think that just coming back to what you were saying Wayne, where you are linking faith and spirituality and I actually think they’re different things. I would maintain that they’re different things, because as I think I said before, faith is usually in something. It has an object. Whether you have faith that you have a soul, whether you have faith in any one of a number of different gods. But spirituality is about connection.

Dr. Drew:  You can do either or both, Bron.

Bron:  Yes, you can.

Dr. Drew:  You may be identifying as being a combination of religion and spiritual. But being religious doesn’t automatically make spiritual and being spiritual doesn’t automatically make you religious. So it is that freedom of will and want to be comfortable and happy and have that love in your own self to know that you’re comfortable there.

Bron:  Yes, I totally agree Drew.

Brian:  So Amanda in your business, in your counseling that you do, did you come across this as well?

Amanda:  In what sense?

Brian:  Like people having lost something or not being able to find something or not being something?

Amanda:  That’s pretty much what counseling is. It’s people typically are lost on something and they come in and they’re looking for some guidance. But in reality, they have all the guidance they need within their own head. They just need somebody who is able to like pull that information from them, be used as a sounding board and say, “Now get the confidence within yourself to actually do the things that are already in your head. Go out there and do them.”

Dr. Drew:  Or to give them a tool, a psychological tool, we might use for example Circles of Influence. It’s a pretty simple tool that says “Where is your inner circle, the most important part of your life?” “Where is the next important part of people in your life?” And as we go out of the rings of the circle, we place the people who have the most or less influence in our lives. Now here’s an example, my mother-in-law sits on the farthest out of the circle, I can create my circle of influence. And yet when I get upset about her or something she says about me, my family, her daughter, my wife, our relationship, for some reason it will agitate dysfunction and make me upset and I’ve got to remind myself the same teachings I give to my own clients. Is she and does she belong in my inner circle of that importance? No, well why are you being emotional about it? Push it back out to the outer circle because it shouldn’t be influencing your life. But it’s not the counsel of that placing them in those circles, it’s the individual that places them. The counselor helps them see that their decision was real, the decision would have count and ability and they have faith in themselves for doing that and now move on with the new norm.

Brian:  Sounds a little bit like you could in an extreme case, counsel people out of any understanding of what they’re supposed to be doing.

Dr. Drew:  A bad counselor probably might think about doing that.

Brian:  If you lose your temper or if you’re upset with your mother-in-law or your sister or whoever the next door neigbor, why do you need to qualify that? You’re upset because the dog dug up your plants, or because they upset your wife, or whatever they did, or they hit your child, whatever. For whatever reason you’re upset, can’t you just be upset without needing somebody to qualify it for you?

Amanda:  Well that’s the whole thing. You don’t necessarily need to qualify it for people but what happens is oftentimes people don’t have other people to talk to. So it just ruminates in their own head and then it becomes bigger than it actually needs to be. So very much often, people come into counseling to actually have somebody that they can talk to in a non-judgmental way.

Dr. Drew:  And to help them with cognitive therapy.

Brian:  And to begin at this hour, one of the things I said was, “I think you should just tell people to get out more.” Amanda, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there. People don’t have a lot of people to talk to. I’m not knocking this on anyone. I don’t know that talking to a professional is necessary, they need to talk to people. I’m not suggesting that you counsel.

Dr. Drew:  We are people Brian. I would like to make that very clear, that Amanda and I are people.

Amanda:  We are people and the best part is that we’re non-judgmental people. Because I can go out and I can talk to my best friend, or my mom or anyone else and they’re going to have opinions based on how well they know me and how well they think they know my situation. And sometimes, you just don’t want other people’s opinions and that’s why you seek counseling because it’s a non-judgmental approach. Someone you can literally bounce an idea off of.

Wayne:  And Amanda in defense of professional counselors, psychologists, for me the wonderful thing about them is that you don’t owe them a further obligation like a friend because you just pay them $195. If you want to walk away and never talk to him again, as a patient that’s my right, yes. So I don’t knock the use of and the need for professional counselors, but I’d get concerned about a counselor who required belief in things unseen. Given the emphasis in evidence, it’s in the psychology profession.

Dr. Drew:  And so Wayne can I say hearing you say that, which is very nicely here you give a positive remark towards people like us for a change. However I can wrap it all up. For me, to say to our Boomer listeners on this subject matter although we have diversified a little here and there, but this is the whole matter of the reason to have the conversation. Many Boomers go on these searching journeys and these realizations and it always will move back to our other conversations around emotional intelligence and things that we have been discussing in our podcast. But really I want all of our listeners to know, to have the ability to pull yourself up, to realize you may be going too far one way or the other, and you never ever, ever disregard the ability for you to engage with a proper health professional who is a qualified accredited counselor, who’s got a qualification, who can listen to it, and help, and advice and stir you for yourself to find the right way that you need to go.

Brian:  It’s one of the potential problems with any counselor and truly – I’m not having a go at counselors, I’m just answering a question – Is one of the perceived dangers that if somebody comes to you with whatever the problem is that you would lead them along a path that you think is right?

Dr. Drew:  No, I understand what you’re saying Brian and this is the thing about what Amanda and I do. We have very, very stringent practices that we are taught and trained in our degrees when you get to this level of therapeutic counseling and working with people psychological, emotional experiences, we are very heavily restricted on a number of issues to do with our own morals, opinions and values. We are very heavy restricted on the contract we line up with the client. People come to us counselors to seek help and they get very frustrated with me when the first session or two, I don’t actually talk about their problem. We talk about the relationship, and the boundaries and the guidelines that I want set down, that we’re about to take together in therapy and they say “No, I just want to cough my cancer all over your bloody table for my $195.” No, that’s not the journey you’re about to take with me. We always value very much the professional and ethical boundaries we take and the second part of that is all of us must receive and I do it monthly. I’m sure Amanda does. We go to other supervisors and we undertake professional counseling supervision ourselves in relationship to, when I have experienced a counseling session that has struck a chord in me and my emotions and my values, then I diarize  die right that and it’s the first issue I’d rais with my counseling supervisor, generally a psychologist or psychiatrist to say, “I have experienced this in the counseling session and now I need to build a way of not allowing, or triggering or blocking this from coming into my practice.”

Bron:  It’s so important.

Dr. Drew:  The other counselors don’t do that.

Glenn:  Certainly sometimes, the conversation may need to be with a professional. Other times, it might need to be with some mates and other times, we can do the spiritual thing like Clint Eastwood go and talk to the trees or go and sit in nature and just express our thoughts out loud at the ocean. To me that’s where spirituality is, that connectivity of the oneness for something beyond our own self and beyond people to that the realm of nature. So many, many different paths needed up, many, many mountains and so, that’s the thing that allows all opinions to spill out the beans. As soon as we start to isolate one or denigrate the other, it takes away some of the spiritual vibration for me.

Wayne:  Well, that’s been our chat on spirituality but I suspect we have to come back and revisit this topic.

Dr. Drew:  I have no doubt.

Wayne:  I’m not sure that we’ve got a group of satisfied panelists or indeed from my own point of view, I am unresolved in a number of matters but time has beaten us. So can I say Glenn, Amanda, Bron and Brian, thank you for your time today.

Dr. Drew:  You’re very welcome. I love this podcast.

Glenn:  Thank you.

Bron:  It’s nice to be here.

Wayne:  And thank you for your passion. Drew, lovely to chat with you again on the program and thank you for your contributions today.

Glenn:  Thank You Wayne. I think we’re all going to get some spirit inside of us now.

Brian:  I’m just going to go and talk to the trees. I’ll see you later.

Glenn:  Thank you Clint.

Dr. Drew:  Well I’m currently out in Western New South Wales closer to Northern Territory, I’m out in the Kulgera region and I can tell you it’s a very spiritual place out here.

Wayne:  If you’ve been listening to our podcast and the spirit has moved you, on our website, you can find the transcript. You can also find this audio obviously in a number of places including on our website and also on SoundCloud and YouTube. Our website is boomsdayprepping.com and we would love to hear from you. Please don’t let us believe we’re the only opinionated Boomers in the world. Reach out on YouTube, reach out on any of our social media channels and we’re happy to take your questions and we’re happy to hear your opinions. My name is Wayne Bucklar, this is Boomsday Prepping. Thanks for being with us today.


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