Our hosts Wayne Bucklar and Dr Drew Dwyer take our panel and the audience on a journey of self-reflection, their individual interpretation of spirituality and their thoughts about the holiday season.
Dr Drew starts the discussion with: “So you have a lifespan, you’re born, you’re raised as a child, you spend then three quarters of your life working, building a life, getting into a relationship, perhaps having your own family raising children, empty nesting comes, you move on life changes, when you’re in transition into aging and that third stage now becomes a reflection connection where we start looking at the meaning of life in retirement years. We have bought time on our hands and I suppose in context Baby Boomers get more time to connect or think or probably reflect more over their lives so they can try and understand where they now fit in. Questions to be asked, was their life worthy perhaps, where is their life going.”
Glenn Capelli also has a reminder that during the holiday season, to see it as good reflection time and good connectivity time and do something beyond yourself and feeling as if your difference can add to the greater tapestry of unity, so difference in unity combining together beautifully.
Wayne Bucklar: Welcome to the Baby Boomers podcast, it’s Boomsday Prepping. It’s time where we once again get together, our panel of Baby Boomers, and we have a look at the
topics that interest us, the Baby Boomers. And we’re joined as always by our resident gerontologist Dr. Drew Dwyer and our regular panel Amanda Lambros, Bron Williams, Brian Hinselwood, Glenn Capelli. My name is Wayne Bucklar, here is my co-host Dr. Drew Dwyer.
Dr Drew Dwyer: Thank you Wayne. Hello everybody and welcome to the panel. Today’s conversation of course which we have dabbled in before and I’m going to dabble in it again, we’re coming up in our part of the year towards Christmas and religious celebrations and all sorts of different things which incorporates a number of different religious ideas and methodologies and philosophies. But predominantly this conversation is about spirituality in the Baby Boomer and that’s what we’re going to examine and pull apart, so I’ll begin by explaining that the conversation always is difficult because spirituality can’t be explained by scientific method. It differs from the understanding and concept of religion because religion is a methodology or a philosophical based ideology that is structured, it has dogma, it has a few things that are constituted throughout it. But spirituality primarily for any individual is defined as the aspect of human beings and their experience that is purilistic around the way they view their connection with the universe, the lifespan and sometimes or what you perceive or individuals may perceive as their connection with God or a greater being or a life force. And myself being a Reiki Master, we have a more stronger tendency to call this universal energy, so spirituality of course is something that’s not well defined by science so it challenges individuals like me or my colleagues who are scientifically, academically based but I’ve done quite a bit of research and connection with spirituality through the mastering the ability to be a Reiki Master or understanding spirit or spiritual dimension and energy connection. And so over the period of your life, you come in and out of connection with it, primarily due to events that have an impact on your life so for Baby Boomers, I want to discuss more about where we reach a stage or you get to a stage where the question sits more around the meaning of life, what is life meaning to a person, why are Baby Boomers particularly more or identified as moving towards these thinking patterns that we get older and in general I believe it’s because when I look at the psychotherapy aspect, is because of life change and transition. So you have a lifespan, you’re born, you’re raised as a child, you spend then three quarters of your life working, building a life, getting into a relationship, perhaps having your own family raising children, empty nesting comes, you move on life changes, when you’re in transition into aging and that third stage now becomes a reflection connection where we start looking at the meaning of life in retirement years. We have bought time on our hands and I suppose in context Baby Boomers get more time to connect or think or probably reflect more over their lives so they can try and understand where they now fit in. Questions to be asked, was their life worthy perhaps, where is their life going, perhaps particular questions that Baby Boomers have, “Am I a good person? What’s the meaning of life? Am I suffering? How can I be better? What’s my connection with the world and the universe around me? Why do things happen and why did they happen? Why did I have it, I end up here and how come I might be better in some possible way?” So I’ll go to Bron who’s our spiritual connected person because she is our God botherer, happy clappers I call them, I love them but Bron if you don’t know, all that listeners should know that Bron is not a spiritual person, she’s a bit more religious than the rest of us. She’s a Christian who has had a long history in the Christian faith and of course working in community and taking a relationship with people and religion and spirituality. So Bron, what’s your thoughts on just spirituality as a concept?
Bronwyn Williams: Okay. I’m actually going to clear up something to start with, I am no longer connected, have not been connected for probably two three four years with any religious based group and have taken my own journey away from that. That’s been happening for the last ten years.
Dr Dew: You are still spiritually connected I gather.
Bron: Totally and I think that one of the things that a lot of Baby Boomers like myself who have grown up, look I was born into a church, baptized at six weeks old my parents were foundation members of the Presbyterian Church so that’s my birthright in a sense. So for decades, that was certainly what Brian calls my religious side and I know a lot of people can connect or they equate religion and spirituality but as I matured even from my mid-20s onwards, I really started to discern a difference between the religion and the structure and the teachings and doctrines of my church and the variety of different churches that I went to and a connection to spirit or a spirituality and that was actually a difficult thing because unfortunately church institutions often frown on that sort of spirituality because it can’t be controlled and church as institutions are all about control and keeping people doing the same thing. So I’ve been making my own journey away from religion per se to a much more holistic spiritual experience that now is much broader than my sort of very early Christian basis but that hasn’t been without its challenges either because when you give up or let go of things that you’ve held dear for decades and you find your feet in a new way, it can be quite unsettling to say the least but good.
Dr Drew: Alright and now we’ll go to the meat in the sandwich, our Brian Hinselwood Baby Boomer so he can tell us his connection, understanding or concept of spirituality.
Brian Hinselwood: Yes, good morning everybody. I’m probably the least spiritualistic person in this little group of ours. I really do have a problem with the churches, any church, I’m not talking about the Christian Church, any church’s doctrines when they can quite easily go out and cause mayhem in the name of their God, whoever their god is and from my brief reading on the matter, there’s something like two and a half thousand gods had supported round the world and so I really have a problem with spirituality and Bron just brought up an interesting point there where she was talking about the Christian Church particularly but mentioned almost all churches work on controlling people and I’m very much engage controlling people. I mean I’m not saying people should be allowed to run amok or whatever, we need laws, we need regulations, we need all those things. But I just think when something is being taught to you or preached to you or whatever and it’s based on fear that if you don’t do this, you’ll go to a horrible place under the ground somewhere and if you do really well, you go up above the cloud somewhere. I mean I think it’s a difference between a miner and an airplane pilot. Yeah, I just have a problem with spirituality and it’s interesting when both Drew and Bron have mentioned spirituality and how many different forms it takes and I just only see kind of one form.
Dr Drew: You only see the dogma of religion Brian.
Brian: Yeah, I kind of do.
Dr Drew: Let me explain something. I’ll try explain something for the listeners too, when we think about spiritual I ask everyone to put things into two silos or two bubbles. Spirituality as a reflection or a question process for you is things like where do I fit in? Where do I find meaning for myself? How do I feel connected and how should I live? Religion as the other bubble or the other silo is what practices and rituals should I follow? What is right and wrong and what is true and false or good and bad? So you’re dead right Brian, the dogma or those constructor of religion actually takes, for me, takes away the spirituality question because they’re asking people to subscribe to a prescribed dogma, a system that says this is the connection all the rules you must have whereas the reality and I’m going to move to Amanda in a minute. Does it really should be around the focus of separating the two out because it’s not about religion although religion has a connection to the divine, spirituality is more about emotional health and emotional well-being so it is really about seeking meaningful connection with something bigger than yourself and emotional health, cultivating a positive state of mind about being happy with that. So I’ll go to Amanda in a counseling sense but Amanda can you give us your opinion of spirituality and am I right in making the connection between spirituality and emotional health? I still want to keep religion out of the context because it really does not have much to do with spirituality.
Amanda Lambros: Yeah and I think that’s actually really important to do, like that distinction between spirituality and religion. And so religion, like you were saying, that thing that’s taught to us or indoctrinated from a very young age and for me spirituality is the things around you that allow you to feel how you feel. And I think some people are more aware than others but I also think that people’s life experiences gives them that level of awareness that they may not have previously had. I know in some of the stuff that some of the work that I do, I had someone tell me that spirituality was the gut feeling. That to them, their spirituality is actually being honest with themselves and listening to their gut because they know they’re being guided by something else. And I think that’s pretty cool to be able to say “Yeah” and listen to it and be guided by it and go for it. And others and I’ve had great conversations with people that they say more like a meditation circle works for them and even in just in quiet and in silence and in their own thoughts and mind and head, they feel that spirituality coming in almost answering questions for themselves. Which in reality, if you want to really pull it apart and look at it from a psychological perspective, yeah you’ve got answers in your own head. You’ve just got to declutter all the shit around you and actually take the time to listen to what’s going on because chances are, you do have the majority of your answers there and available to you.
Dr Drew: Okay. Bron, I’m going to ask you because if you look at the definitions of spirituality and I’ll go from a scientific clinical aspect and that is it in the medical domain, it’s always considered the connection of spirituality that is the aspect of humanity. So it is an ethics approach, it’s how people feel about self and about others and about connection with nature and universe so that’s how medical people see it. The spiritual type, well people call it the aspect of the human spiritual brain so spirituality is the experience of how you interpret your connection with the divine because they say it’s in the brain, it’s an automatic connection, it’s like in our DNA, it’s about how individuals connect with it their own way because it’s your pathway and nurses like me who study this, we look at the spiritual dimension in health and healing and finding harmony if the human being forget them, connect to the universe and their understanding of it because it’s infinite, it has no boundary for a nurse and it’s how that person faces and deals with emotional stress, physical illness, transition, death and dying. So nurses are well trained in spiritual health because we use it as an aspect of looking at the patient, help them heal the way they connect. So that’s quite a diversity but with Boomers, many of them aren’t religious because we were all indoctrinated into religious faith at some point and I think as I get older as Bronwyn has stated, the disconnection begins. I think Bronwyn, you confirm this or not, but is it a disconnection from religion and the dogma but still a strong connection with spirituality and faith and universe?
Bron: I would totally agree with that. Yes, it’s a deconstruction of your faith. This is actually a really important passage, there are Christian theologians who particularly people like Richard Rohr who talk about moving away from a childish faith which is bound by dogma and orthodoxy and even orthopraxy to a mature faith that allows for even flow, that allows for influence from other thought processes, other viewpoints, other worldviews and there’s a sense in which it’s both individual and corporate like I don’t join together with other Christians and I’m putting that in inverted commas any longer. I see absolutely no need to because my experience of that now is one where I don’t fit into that institutionalized faith because it comes with rules and regulations that are no longer prepared to limit myself to so that very much still very connected to self and I thought it was really interesting when you talked about the essence of being human. One of the understandings that I’ve come to because the Christian Church particularly talks about holiness and I see holiness as ‘wholiness’ – becoming the most whole human being that I can be and I think there’d be a lot of Baby Boomers who identify as Christians who are taking that path as well that it’s no longer about a set of rules or staying within the boundaries but it’s about being the most whole version of ourselves that we can be.
Brian: Yeah, some things that Amanda said and indeed Bron, really I think are really interesting. I’m just not sure when both of them were talking about ‘be true to yourself as an individual and working out why you’re here, what your purpose is, etc. etc.’ Why it’s called this spirituality, why we just don’t call it life? I think for me, it’s the title that we’re working under the spirituality title that kind of throws me. I just had a deal with a friend who’s over from America last night and she’s going back to America on the 13th of December and she kind of doesn’t want to but she’s trying to get a permanent residency over here in Australia, that’s another story, but she’s got a lot of things happening in her life and I was saying to her last night that I think anybody not just this particular person, anybody needs to be true to themselves first. If you’re not true to yourself, the rest of it doesn’t matter. Unless you’re happy, the rest of it doesn’t matter and I’m including my children, my wife, my extended family, my friends, everything. If I’m not happy, nothing else matters. You’ve got to look after yourself and once you look after yourself, I think the rest for things to a certain degree fall into place, certainly things are going to go wrong, certainly things are going to go … but I think you have to be true to yourself and I think that’s one of the things that Amanda that particular was saying when she was talking to a various groups that she talked about. If you know you’re being as good as you can be and you’re doing the right things then the rest will be trying to work itself out to a large degree. So it’s the title I have a problem.
Dr Drew: Well I mean Baby Boomer generation, if you look at the epidemiology and the influence of research on them in the aspect of them in ministry work for spirituality shows that many of them in later life come back to the church but it’s not saying they’re coming back particularly close to death. It’s not saying they’re coming back to the church because they want to reconnect with God if they did take a disconnection. It’s saying very primarily is because Baby Boomers as a cohort or generation as they grew were the post-war Boomers babies that changed the world, that opened the world to new avenues and specifically was the generation of people that launched themselves from the planet to go into space, into the universe. We must remember that, that Baby Boomers very clearly remember man walking on the moon – a big thing, a massive thing for humanity to get their head wrapped around and so moving forward from that now 40 odd years, Baby Boomers have transitioned, moved away from religious connection and yet the research shows many, many of them as a cohort come back to religious connection in the church onto end-of-life stage so but it clearly states that this is not because they want to be religious. It’s because they’ve now making transitions of spiritual connection and the reality of combining religion as a dogma and a teaching to what they’ve discovered as their connection with the universe and the great divine. So Amanda, from a psychological or counseling perspective, do you think this has a pathway that all Baby Boomers should follow or is it something do you think that is, I don’t know abnormal? Do you think death plays a role in forcing older people to look more closely at spiritual religion?
Amanda: I actually, I like that you added death in there because I think that’s one of the things that kind of catapults a lot of people into start looking at it. Recently, my husband came home and he said to me, he goes “Oh the guy who sat next to me, he no longer sits next to me.” I said “Why not?” He goes “He died.” I’m like “What?” He goes “Massive heart attack, died. His wife came in and told us the next day.” And I was like “Oh my goodness, that’s massive.” And then it was the conversation around like the idea of death and what do you believe and what are we going to do and all that kind of things. So I think in some ways, spirituality, death and thinking that you’re going to die really does catapult people into thinking like “Is there a higher being? Do I look within myself? Am I going to do one of those Eat, Pray, Love spiritual journey is where I just kind of go and find myself?” And I think that’s that’s why I bring it back to like people have the answers within their own heads, I don’t think it’s weird, I don’t think it’s abnormal, it’s not pathological like “Oh you hear a voice in your head.” Chances are, you’re hearing your own voice in your head to say “Take the reins and actually go and do something.”
Dr Drew: Oh yeah, absolutely. It’s interpersonal communication.
Amanda: Exactly. But you know what, as a society the good large majority of society is “Don’t believe what’s in your head. Don’t believe what’s in your heart, don’t believe what’s in your head so do what is socially right socially correct and fall within these norms and when you do, we’ll accept you.” And so I think from a younger age, people are very afraid to step into this world as spirituality because maybe this is seen as the dippity woohoo kind of stuff but then in reality as you grow older, you’re like “I really don’t care.” And like we’ve had this conversation on here before, “I don’t really care about it other people’s opinions about me and what I do and my beliefs. I’m going to do what makes me internally feel the best possible person I can.”
Dr Drew: Yeah and I think this comes down to when you do some religious, you review on it you see very clearly that they categorize out three part types of people and particularly in a Baby Boomer space where they make an affirmation around spirituality and that is the see-ers, the knowers and the seekers. And they say that the see-ers see something ahead of them they don’t understand, they transition into becoming seekers who throw yourself down the rabbit hole and I’ll use this term a lot as much as ‘Alice in Wonderland.’ But I’m going change the conversation level and continue it on, we’ve lost some of our panel members but I’ve gained one and that’s Glenn Capelli, one of our regulars, who’s come in and I’m going to transition our conversation in the same context as of spirituality and the conversations we’ve been having around what spirituality means to Baby Boomers and specifically now when I have a conversation and open up with Glenn to have a talk about his view on spirituality and aging and older people. But more specifically on move it now we’re coming for us here doing the podcast it’s now with the Christmas season has arrived, Christmas is a very religious occasion of course. It also has a large element of spiritual meaning to people and of course also with Jews and Hanukkah coming or being on now Day Five or Six I believe in our calendar and how that reflects and how people see that. Glenn will have some insight for us on that issue and that subject matter and of course I want to then narrow down the conversation and with Glenn over men and the relationship that men have to specifically spirituality, religion and Christmas more specifically. How does Christmas affect men? What do men actually think and feel about Christmas and what about aging and older men who now experience Christmas differently that they are older? What does Christmas bring to us as men and how do we deal with the real meaning of Christmas or Christmas itself? So I’m going to pass over to Glenn now and ask Glenn the simple question is Glenn explain to us or give us your feeling of course again with the discussion on how do you interpret spirituality and in this context and I ask you to in our podcast we’ve been talking about in the panel about we actually want to separate out religion but now I’m going to bring it in in a minute,but religion and spirituality are different things and that’s one message we want to get clear. What’s your concept of spirituality? How do you relate to it as a Baby Boomer yourself and what do you think it means to ageing and older people?
Glenn Capelli: It’s a huge one, isn’t it Drew? And it really is the question of my life, 61 years I’ve spent so far and hopefully the ones that continue, so how do I define spirituality myself? I was asked on radio once whether I’m a religious person and I said “I don’t believe I’m religious even though I’ve looked into all of the religions to try to find the common elements, the connectivity of them, the thing that can bring us together.” But I would like to think that I’m on a spiritual path or a spiritual road but then that becomes kind of an easy answer and a bit of a cop-out answer because it’s like well then how do we define what spirituality is and that’s really the topic of this talk but as I say it’s the topic of the 61 years I’ve had on the planet. So spirituality for me is about connectivity and something connecting to something beyond your own self and your own ego. So whether it is to the one song with the universe and how we might define that as God or how people interpret it that is God, whether it is the pagan aspect of linking to nature and things in nature and connectivity to nature, connectivity to family, connectivity to deep in meaningful values, deep in meaningful work so I would say the opposite of spirituality is when we feel disconnected and the more disconnected we are and perhaps we are becoming more disconnected people ironically in a world where there is more what they they call social media connection.
Dr Drew: Yeah. There’s a fascinating subject that is interesting me more and more and more as I do the work I do and to be honest a lot of my work at the moment Glenn, I’m on stepping out of my gerontology perspective or not aging but in my nursing sense – I’m using more of my qualifications inside psychology about that issue and that is the disconnect that’s actually creeping, created globally, the discourse around people using language in terms of our bringing inclusion and inclusivity and yet everything they’re doing is divisive and separating and siloing people out, making people different. I think there’s a problem here, we’ve got language confusion and ideology confusion here and it’s for me, it’s the same process. But I look at spirituality in this sense, I go “Hang on a minute, do people actually know what they’re talking about here? Do they understand what they’re trying to do?” Because for me I’m the same, spirituality is a connectiveness but it is a very specific individual connectives with universal energy, universal knowledge, the greater power, something bigger than us and we spoke about this with the other panel members in the previous half hour and that it is individual, it only belongs to an individual person how they connect themselves. It’s really not up to others to tell or to interpret but we have the discussion about how many people now become these spiritual gurus and they’re all about it and they all know it is and then it becomes a class race, “I’m better than you in spirituality or I’m more connected than you.” And then all of a sudden, we’ve got a lot of people particularly Baby Boomers feeling like they’ve missed something or they want to go towards something new because they are inspired by these other people who have apparently reached their higher ground, their higher attainment. Personally I don’t believe it, you’ll never reach it. And as I said in the panel, I can’t wait to the day that any major energy transition shift or vibration to a higher plane comes because I’d really love to be able to see what that looks like.
Glenn: Going back to the age old days of when I first started in this field of educating in sort of development of human minds and hearts and we would get people to say out loud, spell ‘guru’ out loud and of course it’s almost a cliche. Now guru is G-U-R-U “Gee, you are you” – you’ve got an individuality. In the word ‘beauty,’ there is “B” and “U,” – be you – find your own uniqueness, your own oddity and this difference that we bring to in connectivity so it’s the sameness of being human and the difference of being oddly human and how we can bring some oddity and difference to the collective. But the thing for me that really is that interesting is as we age, do we open up more to that? Do we open more to connectivity or are we finding people being more and more disconnected? Because family is now separated and scattered to the ends of the earth and some people now don’t even send a message to each other in social media. They just send a thumbs up.
Dr Drew: Yeah, I mean I hate texting. I often text to my kids when they start texting me and other friends of course, I immediately stop the text or I’ll send a message and go ‘Stop. Please call me because texting sucks ass.’ I’ve had my daughter say to me, “Dad, that is such a gross way of putting it.” And I go “Yeah, but what’s more gross? Trying to make sense of the texting. We’re not connecting, we’re actually disconnecting and for me this as well as a spiritual thing. I have a son Glenn that is I call him a star child. If listeners want to have a look at what star children are, they’re more or less are very young new millennial children or youth. They’re very differently connected, I believe there’s a very strong spiritual understanding around star children because I do believe when you study spirituality and look at some of the things, I’m a Reiki Master of course and when you look at energy, the world is vibrating and coming out of its Stone Age and Bronze Age and into a more golden age, we’re in that rotation if you understand the way the world and Mother Earth spins. Our star children are now here with us on the planet, they are meant to be the children that are going to help us lift in the vibration of knowledge or knowing or awakening. These are children who are very different. I do believe this is why we’re seeing a bigger increase in the term or the use of spectrum and autism because I don’t believe in any scientific sense that all of a sudden, we’ve got this massive problem with children and autism. I believe we know more about it but I believe there’s more star children who are different, who are them that guru, that ‘you are you.’ So I have a son who’s very much him and I try and guide him and lead him but he very much tells me who he is, what he’s about, how he’s thinking and he’s only 15 but he’s been doing this to me since he was five and “You won’t control me and I think this way and you will understand and you will work.” I’ve tried to teach him the basics of how we operate as a family in our culture and he gets that and he’s very polite and has the right morals and principles I think and right integrity for a 15 year old but he’s very sharp on the end and very ownerís on “This is me. This is my way. This is my connection. This is who I am.” And at the moment I see him very challenged growing into teenage age, he’s about to turn 16, with how other people’s society and social media is asking him to be or to connect or to have a thinking pattern when he will tell me clearly “But that’s not how I think Dad and that’s not how I want to think.” And then tells me that the stress he’s under as a young person because he’s being asked to conform that way. We sat down the other day and he said “When you were growing up dad and your parents are growing up, were you forced to do this way?” I said “Well I don’t remember being forced. We had family culture. Spirituality was not an issue in my family, Christianity was an issue, religion was a big issue, doctrinated Catholics.” I said “But you were allowed to break molds and if you were different you would just looked upon as weird.” Perhaps bullied in some senses in family issues and community but most people generally just knew that you were different to them and accepted it. I find these days that we’re not connecting to that difference and I think that difference is very centered around spirituality. I think people connect into the universe and energy and knowing and being in very different ways.
Glenn: It’s a fascinating thing and I hadn’t heard sort of a star child talked to me in that way but when you look at it, in today’s world, there’s so much more pressure for everyone and particularly younger people to be a star. Be a star, be a hero, be famous and yet these star children you’re talking about in your own lad, that would be the antithesis of being a star child and not trying and being themselves as a human being.
Dr Drew: That’s right. Sorry Glenn, this is a language used in the spiritual realm, star children refers to the indigo child, it’s another word they give them and these are children who have got, they say, particularly gifts. Some of them are documented and known as to be able to see in the dark, connect, being able to talk to aliens, talk to spirits, going to other dimensions, see things this stuff you see on Facebook some of its rubbish but there is quite a bit of research being done around them. Alien type eyes, different blood, they’ve checked their DNA, there’s things in it they don’t understand, they have visions, they see things, they’re called star children. The spiritual world refers to them as a vibrating child that is able to vibrate in a dimension like more than third dimension that we you and I would vibrate in, they’re different so they start children so that’s the term I use star child and you can google it.
Glenn: I like it but also perhaps like the idea that there’s a touch of the star child in every human being.
Dr Drew: I agree.
Glenn: That when we were young, I think of the hours and hours and hours I used to have in play, naturally invented play, games out the back in the bush backyard with characters in my head but they weren’t in my head, they were imagined into the bush. You’re using imagine and it was like a real movie that was going on and I was a part of it and it’s the purity of imagination and somehow maybe along the way, we get a little bit of this star-ness kicked out of us or knocked out of us and to reconnecting to it, maybe our own spirituality.
Dr Drew: Yeah, well this where I was heading. We had the conversation with the panel and I’m sorry you missed the early part, you’re back in now but the panel talked about specifically and the listeners will know this we talked about how and I gave the statistics, how many Baby Boomers older people end up coming back to this space, this conversation of connection with whatever. But they have to quickly separate, they’re struggling to separate out spirituality, spiritual meaning, connectiveness against doctrine and religion and dogmata, what they taught. And yet when they face end-stage, late elder life – sickness, chronic disease or palliative process, very quickly it converts over to ‘my mission, my goal, my purpose, connection, God, religion and dogma.’ It was a great conversation we had with the panel around this and that is we really need for Boomers to understand because more and more of them are coming this way towards it and I want to them to very clearly understand “Know yourself first, know what you’re looking for. If you have religious background, that’s okay but if you’re searching spirituality, be specific and research what you’re looking for because you can end up like Alice in Wonderland going down a rabbit hole trying to explore some things that are just not going to connect for you.”
Glenn: And many, many parts up the mountains and many, many, ways to get there I think and hopefully there’s not a guru sitting up at the top of the mountain either. It’s just the mountain and the view that you get, the view of life but you mentioned a couple of things there earlier Drew about the amount of anxiety in young people and I think the amount of anxiety happening for a lot of people in today’s world, as the superficial connectedness has gone on and I think I want to find a new word for social media because it’s actually not social. Social is face-to-face really where you can smell, taste, touch each other and whatever term we come up with for it, it’s meaningful and it can be good it can connect me to old friends around the place new friends are fine but it should not be a replacement for human being to human being.
Dr Drew: I agree.
Glenn: This is one of the things where as we age, I’ve got a good mate in Western Australia, you probably know her Maggie Dent and Maggie’s a wonderful educator about boys and children and youngsters and stillness and she’s just a gem. She often mentions as an example when she’s talking to two women and says “When did you last chat with your friends?” “Yesterday, this morning.” And she’ll say to blokes “How many really good friends have you got in sight? When did you last chat?” “Eighteen months ago now I spoke with him.” So for me, that’s one of the great challenges as a man getting older to have other men and I’ve got wonderful women in my life that I’m able to talk all kinds of concepts with. But men that I can actually have spiritual conversations with them, human conversations with them and challenge each other with these things and I think inside every bloke, there’s a need for this kind of connection, for that kind of mateship that’s beyond the ‘be a mateship,’ if it’s really in the deeper mate ship and if we don’t have it then we the disconnection for men as they get older, we’re losing some real talent and some real possibilities.
Dr Drew: I totally agree. I mean I’m a male nurse Glenn as you know and yes I’m a doctor of geriatric nursing but I am the same. I was raised, born and bred educated at work in a work life surrounded by women, women nurses and raised in a very feminist environment, understanding feminism, studying it, being a feminist myself. I value meeting men that I connect with and it’s often a space the same, I don’t meet enough of them and when you do meet him, it’s I want to have the conversation but then very quickly I find in a spiritual conversation it ends up becoming a debate of who’s got the greater intelligence or the higher level and I don’t like that space. I think spiritual conversations between men, it should be more about reflection. For me, our experience, how do we interpret our experience, what is our experience. Not telling somebody else how they should experience or interpret something or not necessarily making up on something, an interpretation of something should be, but I find that I don’t meet enough men in this space probably because men have not been nurtured in this space. Men are pragmatic thinking people, single-celled amoebas my wife calls us, and when I do I find a good connection other people don’t seem to understand the connection you have. I don’t mind men groups but then as I said, I’d be very careful when I go into them because the undertow of the man’s group is what is that man group for? What is the purpose of it being together, but I do enjoy talking with other men and being around other men and leading other men around knowing themselves, having emotional intelligence, being comfortable with who they are and if they’re not, searching out why and finding the space that they connect with that makes them comfortable because a lot of men go through life not being comfortable.
Glenn: Yes. And sometimes, with blokes and it’s to do something as you’re having the conversation so walk.
Dr Drew: Man shed, yeah.
Glenn: Yeah, find some wood and chat. It’s amazing for many, many years I mean probably for about 20 years, we played men’s cricket in Western Australia. It’s a group of blokes mainly and they’re half a dozen of us get together and we invented T20 Cricket before T20 Cricket existed and it was really a cricket ball and smack it around and we’d play for three or four hours on a Sunday once a month and something else was happening. Something else that was not about cricket, it was not about the physicality of it, it was about the kind of chatting that would open up as we were doing this. There’d be a lot of laughter, a lot of humor but I think there was a real connection between those guys that suddenly their whole life lifted.
Dr Drew: And Glenn do you feel that as a vibration? Was your experience of that an actual feeling of energy and vibration? I know you call it a connection but do you get your head wrapped around the fact that what you’re feeling is a vibration of energy and that then connecting from one to the other to the other to the other and that vibration then gets into synergy with each other and then it elevates?
Glenn: For sure. I think vibration and flow – two of my favorite words – and I think maybe one of the star children that came to the planet many decades ago was Brian Wilson so the Beach Boys and when they sing good vibration, it’s actually a spiritual song and when human beings sing, I mean the sound of our voice is vibration. Everything vibrates, the atomic level of things and when we are somehow in harmony with other human beings, sympatico we call it in Italian, it’s a vibration of flow. And it’s quite magic I mean when you’re sometimes speaking out on the stage and then you sometimes in conversation with people and you just pause and go “Geez, this is magic. This is this beautiful moment in life.”
Dr Drew: Yeah and I’ve experienced many of them and I often have I don’t know about you Glenn but I’ve often been the person experiencing that and realizing at some point “Oh I think I’m the only person in this room experiencing this. Or I don’t think other people are actually getting the vibration I’m getting out of all that’s going on at the moment. Is there something wrong with me?” As my wife says “You get excited and passionate about air.” And I said to her “I know but why is it that some people just don’t pick up on that vibration.” Or when they may do feel that vibration flowing through their own energies, they sort of back it off real quick become “I better step back here, I’m getting too carried away or don’t let the vibration take me.”
Glenn: The air on a g-string, I mean we should be excited about air and g-strings maybe but then we should certainly be excited by air. If you’ve ever been underneath the ocean and tumbling in after a fall from a wave and you’re wondering if you’ll ever get out again to be able to suck in beautiful air, then you learn to appreciate air. And appreciation of nature, appreciation of fish, appreciation of a tree, appreciation of the sky above us. I mean moving back out to land and finding some caboots again in my life has been in quite a spiritual thing. Now other blokes may not define it like that, other people may not define it like that but I think they get it and there’s something in them when they’re just nodding their head. Yeah, so we may need to help people find the language to communicate it or at least to open up the conversations about it.
Dr Drew: Look, I think there’s a massive, massive area for improvement particularly for leaders like you and I and male leaders like you and I dare I say in the contentious world of everything’s all about women who I do love dearly but come on. At the end of the day I think that’s a great space for people like you and I Glenn, we’re having a man chat now this next half-hour so man chat for us to talk about man styles. But when we talk about connection, it’s about language and for me I think there’s some problems with our language and we’re not structuring ourselves right, we’re moving language into a space that just doesn’t make connections and the language is just disconnecting, totally disconnecting and we’re being forced to think about words in a different way that really have no connection and if you don’t think that way, well then we’ll call you out for something. But in this connection, I want to move the conversation now to Christmas itself as a religious festival and religious on connotation connected to spirituality for everyone because Christmas is the giving of spirit or the understanding of connection and spirit. But the connection of Christmas is giving, I’m a Christian of course, I’m a Catholic. I always considered and raised myself in Christian values, not a churchgoer by any means, didn’t get married in a church, have baptized my children, brought them to God or in God’s eyes how I see it, allowed them to raise and have their own Christian believes in my family, don’t force it. I came from a Catholic family, Christmas was a major event in my family Christmas, always had a connection to spirit for me a connection to God, a connection to Jesus and the birth of Jesus and the gift that God gave humanity and blah blah blah. So you can interpret the Old and New Testaments but my point here of the discussion is “Is Christmas any longer a religious festival?” I’m reading a lot at the moment about is it Christmas anymore? Does it have real meaning for Christmas? Anyone who follows me on Facebook will see I already have started posting ‘Chris Jesus is the reason for the season.’ It connects too highly with the Jews and the way they view Christmas and see their Hanukkah which I want you to have a thought process in here because I don’t understand it. I’m not Jewish but I do understand the holiday and for me, men and Christmas because I come from a predominantly male family, a lot of men in my family, very few women. Women controlled Christmas, men did what they were told in Christmas and paid the bills, men made sure everything happened. But for me and talking to some older men of late, Christmas is losing its meaning for older men and predominantly they’re telling me is because they no longer have connection with family therefore the meaning of Christmas for them is disappearing and but then I asked them if they still got their connection with Christmas for the religious festival of it being the birth of Jesus Christ. Many older men I’ve been talking to in the last few weeks over camp relating to Christmas to say what difference does that make in their world anymore. So tell me Glenn, your thoughts on Christmas as a connection to religion and spirituality. If you can, mold in some talks about Hanukkah because I do believe you’ll understand it a fair bit and the difference between the two but they are still culminating religious or Christian or Jewish or spiritual festivals. Do they have meaning any longer? Do you think they’re still strong? Have we lost the gift and as it just become a public holiday of spending money?
Glenn: If they don’t have meaning anymore and if they aren’t strong and or if they don’t vibrate for certain human beings, then I do believe all people need to find some time, find some way to have rituals in your life and some moments where you get to be able to reflect and think so in today’s world for the secular of us- a birthday, and Christmas, maybe even bit of Easter – come in as not being punctuations where you get a break, life gets disrupted in a different way and for me, they’ve always been thoughtful times. Times for reflection, time to gather stuff within myself to look at the thankfulness of the year before or the time before or the times of being there and thankfulness for family and then where may it take me so I think Jewish folk within the Islamic faith and Muslims, they do really quite well in terms of there’s certain times that they have where they gather together with certain rituals and also some reflection time and there’s always something to do with fasting or feasting.
Dr Drew: Yes, food. Food and music mate are the things that bring people together.
Glenn: It’s like an Italian Indian kind of collectiveness around a meal that everyone contributes and certain things are eaten at certain events, certain times of the year.
Dr Drew: Yeah and the meaning of these things. I believe the meaning of these things Glenn, like you, you’re very much music orientated but food has a meaning. music has a meaning. These things I believe are the conduits of spirituality and religion and Christianity of course or any other religious meaning but I think that we need to open ourselves more to understand. It was said to me the other day “Christmas is a forced ideology and blah blah blah.” And I thought, I turned around and I said to the person “I don’t think it’s a forced ideology. I think it’s a meantime where we actually get an opportunity to focus and connect with the meaning of ourselves, spirit, giving, gift, others, food, music and we use this small period in the year for me to stop, to let go and to give because I don’t believe we give enough in our modern world and I’m a giving person so for me, the connection of Christmas now is about folk not being forced but to having that focus that light on it that says “It’s Christmas, start thinking deeply more about others giving gifts. Earth, Jesus, Hanukkah, the religious and what connects you all and like you said, food is one of them.
Glenn: Yes. Maybe becoming more meaningless and these things are becoming times where however we interpret them to bring some meaning to our lives and some connectivity and the giftedness to me, some of the Christmases I’ve had and they’ve been magical because of family gathering and friends gathering and certain things happening and conversations taking place and fun events. The first Christmas that I ever invited my new girlfriend who three months later become my first and only wife, Lindy, along and there was a chance to meet the whole family and I just returned from traveling around the world and one of my mates and one of my mates, my traveling mates was with me staying at our place and I bought everyone water pistols and of course it became the Christmas of the water pistol, the Christmas of the battle. So Lindy rocks up at our place and immediately gets drenched with a hose, here hair that she’s put together for four hours and it was just beautiful, my proper I ended up again climbing the back tree and singing Isola Mia to the to the neighborhood and they’re beautiful beautiful moments. Now because it just happened to be that Christmas brings people together, then those moments were created. If people have got an ideology against Christmas Day, then choose another time in your life, choose another Hanukkah or a week later a week before or what-have-you but given that it’s there, I think if you can put your own stamp on it. Let’s find a way to connect again with human beings and find a way to create some reflection time where you can add some meaning and give, the giftedness of friendship and connectivity to your life. So now for others of course and also I do think we should learn a little bit about when Hanukkah occured, let’s learn about Hanukkah is and why it is celebrated.
Dr Drew: Absolutely.
Glenn: Let’s learn about Ramadan.
Dr Drew: Yeah. We’re being told at the moment to learn more about Islam and what it means because we have got issues globally on it. I mean I’m excited to see the President of the United States at the moment who he’s done as well as his wife’s taking care of the Christianity part of it done the trees and everything else, they’re also doing some series on he’s holding celebrations, attending and putting up over Hanukkah at the moment. He’s cupping a bit of flack for it, I have no doubt. Every time he opens his mouth he gets flacked but he’s saying, I watched an interview, he’s saying he’s focused on Hanukkah. It’s a joint religious celebration at the same time as Christmas is being evolved in the country and more people should understand it, should know what it’s about, should connect with it even if you’re non-jewish to understand it’s very similar in the way that other people who are Christians do it and that is bringing people together, having remembrance, focusing on light, focusing on energy, focusing on positivity and I firmly have a belief that when we’re now talking about Christmas though I don’t think that people saying ‘Happy holidays,’ “Season’s greetings,’ you can’t say ‘Christmas.’ To me that’s utter rubbish, it’s total bullshit. Jesus is the reason for the season, it’s a religious festival it should be well understood and known about people’s faith and their connection and I think it’s the wrong approach to decentralized or take of Jesus and the meaning of Christianity out. It wasn’t culture of people that removed Jesus, it was us as people that remove Jesus from it and I’m not a religious person by any means but I value as a Christian the meaning of Christmas. I’ve got a number of Jewish friends who at the same time all through my life, have celebrated Hanukkah just prior to that Christmas or tell me Glenn does it go into right in to Christmas Day?
Glenn: It depends on the year I think and when it’s close, Jewish year is different from our year of course.
Dr Drew: Okay and then they do their rituals and so forth and I go to their house at Christmas, they’ve got a Christmas tree up, they’ve got their Christmas decorations but always in their window I find those candles. Those either electrical and they’re on and they’re lit and they’ll do the same ritual all the time and I will ask, I’ll ask, I’m an asker. “Why is that now, is it necessary at Christmas?” And they say “Well Drew, Christmas is a time (for them in Australia) where we’re looking at religious faith.” So it reminds me of my own religious faith so I also at the time at Christmas pull out the things that connect me to being Jewish. So I think there’s a positive in that, I think Christmas still has a meaning, I think it has a meaning for any person who wants to understand it, to understand how you connect with your own religion and Christianity or spirituality and I don’t think that it’s a wrong thing to do. If Hanukkah is the connection that Christmas because it’s so widely still celebrated, if Hanukkah is the religious festival that Jews want to celebrate and be reminded of, I think go for your life. If you want to do things in tandem, fill your boots. A conversation I want to move to is about men and men and Christmas and particularly as you get older, are we losing our connection with Christmas? Do you think age and connection, is Christmas for the young?
Glenn: I think given my own situation or circumstance, we don’t have children. We now live in a different state than the rest of my family and the rest of Lindy’s family of course, our parents are no longer with us so my memories of Christmas are very much the Christmases with mum and dad and the people that would gather whether it was in Kalgoorlie or 44 Rocks Cliff Road in Double View and they would come from far and wide and there’d be big celebrations and lots of music, lots of eating etc. And then as nephews and nieces started to come into it, I became a little bit shocked about we would always would have had a present underneath the Christmas tree for us and it would be a pretty special present, maybe one year was even a bicycle and one year it was a cool like surfboard. But the amount of presents underneath the Christmas tree just started to really shock me
Dr Drew: Consumerism took over.
Glenn: How many presents could you open and how quickly they were discarded. I still believe a healthy child should play more with the box the toy comes in than the toy itself so Christmas really started to be a little bit horrific in terms of the amount of presents and the amount of things given to kids and if somebody else was giving, gifting of presents and my mum or my dad when they’re alive then the kids weren’t there looking at that, they were so wrapped up in whatever presents they were getting rather than somebody else receiving something. So we tried to make an effort to really slow things down at Christmas time and for people to be present to not only see and receive their own gifts but to witness the giving of a gift to another human being and then that human being responding to that gift.
Dr Drew: Who drove that principle in your family?
Glenn: I did.
Dr Drew: What age did you do that Glenn?
Glenn: Well when we had a chance to, which meant that if we are running Christmas at our place than we recreate the rule.
Dr Drew: Your rule, your way.
Glenn: I did influence some of the other family members who were being a little bit disturbed by the trend of the pace and volume of what Christmas has become so interesting to see whether my nephews and nieces now who have got children of their own, how they will interpret Christmas for their kids and hopefully a little bit of the slowing of the pace and the volume of things.
Dr Drew: That is what older people say to me, Christmas used to be when they were younger, older clients will say to me Christmas used to be a very erratic, fast-paced thing, always thinking family connection, moving. These days they say “As I’ve got older Christmas has slowed down. It’s not so much stress or pressure on it.” And they no longer have a stronger connection with it because it’s not as vibrant or as quick or as fast as it used to be for them.
Glenn: And I think particularly as the world has paced up, taking a little bit of slower in general a time or we wrote a song many many years ago, wrote it in there at the granite hills outside of Mount Magnet in Western Australia and wrote it based around a young indigenous girl that we had just been working with in one of the schools and we call it Kui Child and “Kui child go slowly in the morning, go gently into the day.” So I think we need a little bit of Kui time at Christmas and a little bit when the world is so bloody rushed and fast faced and springing from one thing to another and how many presents can you open and what have you and then falling exhausted at the end of it. A little bit of Kui time, slow down time, gentle time, time for conversation, time to witness the giving of a gift, the time to witness how that gift is received and time to spend thinking a little bit more about it, a little bit deeper. And whether it’s Hanukkah or Christmas or any other things, I think the rituals in life should be there to help us do a little bit of that and contradict the ever-growing pace and disconnectivity because of that pace in today’s world.
Dr Drew: Yes. Well I’m strong, I have the same feeling in my family my kids under said Christmas is still a big thing in our family but I have my nativity scene set up. My son still now at sixteen steals baby Jesus from the cradle and we have to go and find him somewhere in the house every morning because every time he walks past the nativity scene and I get up and walk past, baby Jesus is missing and I have to go and find baby Jesus and he’s done this since he was two.
Glenn: In my head, Jesus would love a maverick.
Dr Drew: Yeah, he’s still doing it at 16. Yesterday I woke up the baby Jesus was missing from the manger and I went “Dane!” I said “Where’s baby Jesus?” He said “You’ll have to find him Dad.” So off I go through the house and you have to wait, he’d be sitting somewhere perched or sitting under a plant or on the TV. You have to find him in the house, it’s quite hysterical but I look at him go at least my son still has a connection with it at sixteen, six foot five, he’s still doing and having his normal routine around Christmas. One of my brother’s is a Muso and I’m a Christmas carol person so Christmas carols run in my house for a month. If I can get away with it they’ll start in November, but you could see in social media and I do agree with you, we need to find another word for it – SM, maybe social malevolence – but he tells me and I never knew this, he’s going to send me some information music has a vibration and music is constructed around vibration and human beings have a vibration and music is used by musicians at a particular decibel 33 or 43 or something like that, I don’t know what he’s talking about, where it connects. He’s explained to me that Christmas carols have a particular beat, rhyme, they’re slow, they’re ballad-y, they have a particular vibration and I asked him the other day and I said to him “Why does everyone hate carols? I don’t get it.” He laughed, he said “It’s the vibration of the music bro.” He’s real bro type guy and he explained it to me, I said “Oh you need to send me some information on this. I want to read it.” He said because Christmas carols are written, desired, sung traditionally in a particular way because they make a vibration or give a vibration. Humans connect with vibration and I think it’s very intuitive of you Glenn that it makes people slow down and think, that’s what carols do. So in a modern well where everyone hates carols apparently at the moment, do you think that might have something to do with the way we see our connection with Christianity or religion or spirit or being in a modern world particularly now at Christmas. Does no one wants to hear the carols? Perhaps that this is a vibration that comes from music.
Glenn: The thing with carols is that more white people dislike them is because they’re played on a loop in supermarkets and The Little Drummer Boy can only be heard a couple of times. Your brother’s right, carols are meant for the singing so to listen to them is a whole different thing. But when you’re singing because they can be sung, you may have a lousy voice but suddenly there’s ten people singing a Christmas carol and there’s a vibration that we’ll find the range together and there’s that kind of the song, there are easier songs to sing together and they’re meant to be sung, not necessarily meant to be listened to and certainly not as much my nana had White Christmas album by Bing Crosby. It was better to sing along to it rather than just listen to it I think.
Dr Drew: I know. I watched the episode the other night on television, Michael Buble was being interviewed by, I can’t remember who it was but they’re laughing in that his Christmas album in Australia particularly is the biggest selling album at Christmastime and Michael Buble was quite shocked because it’s the only Christmas album he’s ever made and they just keep reproducing it every year and it still makes massive sales.
Glenn: Yeah and there’s so many of today’s musos will find themselves bringing out some sort of a Christmas album at some stage or Kate Miller-Heidke will come up with a new Christmas song “I’m going to grow a beard for Christmas” which is a bit of a ripper in the same way, very very different but beautifully.
Dr Drew: So do you see Glenn music is a conduit for spirituality, religion and connection at Christmas? Is music one of the tools we use other than food?
Glenn: It can be. At some stage, voices together whether its voice in prayer together, it doesn’t have to be grace, it can be the Jewish blessing Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu, melekh ha’olam and singing it. But human voices coming together at some stage and so song or music, I mean when people used to play musical instruments and everyone can play a little bit or if you couldn’t, then you pick up a tin can and get a little bit of a beat happening there – we’re losing so much of this kind of stuff because I think people think that you only do it if you’re going to be a star or only do it if you’re going to be brilliant, only do it if you can be the next winner of the Talent Quest on TV. No, do it because it’s a human thing to do. It’s a lovely thing to do. I know it’s some time at Christmas Day I will walk out into our Bush block and I’ll probably sing a little bit out loud just to myself and the trees. Aa bit of Clint Eastwood in me, I talk to the trees, I sing to the trees but there’s something wonderful in doing that. Just letting a voice be found and then sounded. Lindy will join with the local choir and be singing coming up next week, I’m away but she’ll be there singing and that’s just a beautiful thing when people sing together, harmonize together, vibrate together.
Dr Drew: I love it because at this time of the year I get to experience it. See, Christmas is not a really for me not a time or a holiday season and to be a state of mind – it’s for me a connection. I cherish the fact that Christmas sends a strong message of peace and goodwill and respect and giving. I like those aspects of Christmas. Yes the birth of Jesus Christ, that’s what it was all meant to be placed around but for me it’s the mercy and the respect and a giving in there and the solace that we have. From the pagan ritual of it or the Christian ritual of it is that to have peace and goodwill to other men to your brother or the other piece of humanity to respect and honor and give and show your appreciation to mankind by having and celebrating Christmas. But I’m going to end up and now in the next few minutes Glenn, I want to specifically just have your thoughts on men and Christmas and do you think men have a religious spiritual connection with Christmas? Do you think men who don’t should reconnect with it and now should they do that?
Glenn: I know for a lot of people Christmas is a really tough time because yeah it emphasizes their isolation even if they are in groups of people so it’s a reminder for us to be the best human being we can be on this day and to carry some of that and do our other days too so to reach out and find somebody who might need a little bit of connectivity, to make if we are in different states, to make a phone call to an old friend and just seriously tell them how magic it has been to have them in our lives. So I think blokes need a little bit of connectivity and a lot of the human bloke way of dealing with things is we move away from what we need the most so at times like Christmas, they go further into isolation rather than stepping out a little bit. And those people who seem as if they don’t need a pat on the back or a handshake or a little bit of love probably need it the most so as you say, it helps us be a little bit more aware of this. So my quest to men in particular is to find human beings and you may have lost people and you are close to this people who may no longer be around but there are other human beings out there who you can find some connection with and meaningful value and meaningful conversations with.
Dr Drew: Yeah, I agree. And Christmas shouldn’t be a time to remind us that we’ve lost or don’t connect. It should be a time to remind us and particularly if you’re a man and you’re not connected and you’re isolated at the moment understand that Christmas is probably a message from the universe, the God, the greater God, the higher being, to remind us to get out and connect with other human beings. It’s Christmas, go and find connection, trust and love other human beings and use this visual time of Christmas to reconnect yourself. So if you are a man isolated, if you are a lonely man or a separated man or a single man in your life or perhaps a married man who’s quiet a little bit older in your 70s and above, perhaps use Christmas is a time to reconnect. Find and look at yourself and see what you have are missing and is Christmas giving you a message? Take that message and go and reconnect with other human beings. Your final thoughts on spirituality and specifically as we move to Christmas Glenn and a Christmas cheer to everybody perhaps.
Glenn: Certainly. If you are alone then cook yourself a decent meal and have something nice to eat, pour yourself a drink and toast going up to a tree and give it a toast and have a bit of a laugh and a chuckle and think back on some of the stuff that you’ve been able to do with your life. See it as good reflection time and good connectivity time and within that, that is to me spirituality. Do something beyond yourself and feeling as if your difference can add to the greater tapestry of unity, so difference in unity combining together beautifully.
Dr Drew: Excellent. Well my last message everybody is as Christmas approaches us at a rapid rate of knots, enjoy the moment and the season of goodwill and giving and understand that Christmas has a reason, its reason is connected to a religion. But more importantly I think if you’re not a religious person, understand why it has such special meaning to a lot of people and cut through the religion and look at the spiritual meaning of Christmas and it’s the cherished peace and goodwill and to be plenteous and provide the gift of giving to others and I think that’s the central focus for me. If you’re older person, you’re feeling isolated, get up out of that bloody chair and go and connect with people and give. Many older people have much to give, they probably don’t see their worth and if you have a moment and you are an aging or older or a Boomer person and you’re may be distant from family and friends. Have a look over your shoulder around the corner. There’s a retirement village, a community group, a nursing home within reaching distance of your front door. If anything on Christmas or at Christmas, walk in, put a smile on your face and the simple act of joining in is the biggest act of goodwill you can give at a time when many are isolated in Christmas, at a time when their spiritual being needs to connect. So that’s it from me, thanks for joining me today Glenn in this second half hour.
Wayne: And that was Boomsday Prepping. Once again the panel of Baby Boomers and your two co-hosts have had their say. Please have your say, click in the comment area, make any comments you’d like us to consider. We monitor all of the social media channels and we’ll be able to respond if you send us a message. To our panelists Brian Hinselwood, Amanda Lambros, Brian Hinselwood, Glenn Capelli, Bron Williams, thank you for being with us today. For Dr. Drew Dwyer, our resident gerontologist and my co-host, thank you for leading us through the discussions. My name is Wayne Bucklar, this is Boomsday Prepping